Mary asked a couple of questions

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Permalink Reply by Toni Gilbert on February 5, 2011 at 8:30am

If you study astrology, you can assign astrological associations to Tarot cards. You must know the archetypes of astrology to make the connection to the archetypes on the cards. Toni G

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on February 5, 2011 at 8:38am

I know this is what a lot of people do, but it is false and misleading. Apples and oranges are both fruits, but you can't describe what a apple tastes like by referring to an orange.

Permalink Reply by Toni Gilbert on February 5, 2011 at 9:22am

John, Both modalities use the archetypes. If you know astrology, you can "assign"  an astrological archetype to individual cards that fit nicely with the archetype on the card. Some deck's authors have already done that for you. Basically, you take the apple, add the orange and have a salad. The astrological assignments give you more information about the card and the situation. You won't be able to do this and it may not make sense unless you study astrology. I can use this and it is not false and misleading, it adds depth to the meaning of the cards. Most of the time, I don't need it in the reading as there is a lot of archetypal information in the cards anyway. However, there are layouts that use both and, in my experience, using astrology with Tarot deepens the experience.

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on February 5, 2011 at 9:44am

Toni:

Planets are planets and signs are signs. They are not the same, nor are they interchangeable.

A planet is a wandering star and its meaning changes depending on its sign placement, among other factors. ANY major trump can change and its meaning varies depending on the other cards around it.

A sign is a twelfth part of the zodiac, of wholeness. It doesn't move and is like a backdrop against which a planet operates. ANY major trump can show the background of a situation.

Trying to correlate planets and signs with major trumps is false and misleading, even though there happen to be 22 major trumps and 10 planets and 12 signs which add to 22 as well.

Permalink Reply by Toni Gilbert on February 5, 2011 at 3:29pm

John, You are being too static in your thinking. If you use Tarot and astrology like an interpretive art then, yes they are dynamic and changeable. When you have an astrological assignment to the card, you do not have to use it if it has no particular significance to the situation/issue at hand. However, it might be able to lend more depth by using it.

You will just have to work with it a while if you have that kind of inclination. If you are not inclined to use astrology with Tarot and don't want to, why bother discussing it? Do you understand astrology in terms of the archetypal traits? If not, you can't go any further with this discussion.

If you have the kind of mind that is comfortable with ambiguity you will benefit from the study of the archetypes in both Tarot and astrology. In other words, if you can't take an apple and an orange and make a salad, forget it, go onto something else that you are good at. We all have our talents and this one may not be a good fit for you.

Permalink Reply by Toni Gilbert on February 5, 2011 at 4:05pm

John, I thought of a good book that will give you an idea about how archetypes work:

Pluto: A new look at an old devil by Liz Greene

You will understand a lot more after you understand what the planets and etc stand for symbolically. Be well, Toni

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on February 5, 2011 at 4:33pm

Dear Toni:

Thanks for the reference to Liz Greene's Pluto.

My opinion of Liz has been coloured by a meeting with her in 1975 and a natal chart reading she did for me at the time.

I wanted to know what my chart showed about whether I should stay in Scotland where I was living at the time, get a job and settle down, even though I didn't like the idea of a job teaching in a high school though I had the qualifications for it. Or whether I should keep wandering around Europe and taking odd jobs to pay the rent in hopes that I would wake up one morning and have some idea of what to do with my life.

Liz's reply was, and I quote: "You might", and she went back to talking about Saturn. Her book with that title had been published and she wanted to enjoy her discoveries.

I knew all those years ago that I had to move in a different direction if I was to find something of actual value.

Astrology and the Tarot can give straight answers to straight questions - though 'astrologers' can't do this so they psycho-analyze you and everyone pretends that it's not just completely bogus. It's fluff, but that's all a lot of people want and it's all that they can handle, so I'm not talking to them.

I get bored when people talk 'astrologese' and that's all there is in modern books.

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on February 5, 2011 at 4:37pm

Dear Toni:

Thanks for the reference to Liz Greene's Pluto, though I think you mean "Saturn: A New Look At An Old Devil".

My opinion of Liz has been coloured by a meeting with her in 1975 and a natal chart reading she did for me at the time.

I wanted to know what my chart showed about whether I should stay in Scotland where I was living at the time, get a job and settle down, even though I didn't like the idea of a job teaching in a high school though I had the qualifications for it. Or whether I should keep wandering around Europe and taking odd jobs to pay the rent in hopes that I would wake up one morning and have some idea of what to do with my life.

Liz's reply was, and I quote: "You might", and she went back to talking about Saturn. Her book had been published and she wanted to enjoy her discoveries.

I knew all those years ago that I had to move in a different direction if I was to find something of actual value.

Astrology and the Tarot can give straight answers to straight questions - though 'astrologers' can't do this so they psycho-analyze you and everyone pretends that it's not just completely bogus. It's fluff, but that's all a lot of people want and it's all that they can handle, so I'm not talking to them.

I get bored when people talk 'astrologese' and that's all there is in modern books.

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on February 5, 2011 at 4:19pm

>If you are not inclined to use astrology with Tarot and don't want to, why bother discussing it?

I'm thinking of beginners and others who think that the Tarot isn't complete within itself and that they need to translate cards into some other symbolism - that they hardly know, and that is a lifetime's study - if they are going to make progress. All that approach does is give them pain and sorrow and they end up in a dead end.

>Do you understand astrology in terms of the archetypal traits?

I'm not sure what you mean by this expression. Can you tell me?

I have read that a particular card corresponds with, for instance, Mercury in Sagittarius and this is supposed to mean something.

The problem is that people, especially modern astrologers, don't consider that Mercury is a so-called 'convertible' planet and that he takes his meaning from the planet in closest aspect. So he is serious if connected with Saturn; or combative if connected with Mars. Mercury isn't Mercury in isolation - he is always in some sign of the zodiac and that is how we know him and his effect.

None of this is considered when you look at a card and blindly tell yourself -as people do, all the time - that this card is Mercury in Sagittarius.

Then there are transits. What is the influence if at the time of the reading, transitting Mercury is in Sagittarius? Or if he is in Gemini that is opposite to Sagittarius. What is the changed meaning now? It's not as simple a  matter as people seem to think..

If you don't consider these factors, then the information you give may be correct, but it will be a lucky guess, rather than a considered judgement.

It's not about being "comfortable with ambiguity".

Astrology is - or should be - precise and accurate. It is anything but ambiguous. The Tarot can and should be precise too, but you don't get there if you are sloppy in your method and leave out important steps.

>if you can't take an apple and an orange and make a salad,

If you take an apple and an orange and mix them together, you get a mixture of apple and orange and not a salad.

>We all have our talents and this one may not be a good fit for you.

The point I am trying to make is that it's not good for anyone who wants to read with confidence and with consistent accuracy. I mean reading what is there and not depending on fleeting moments of psychic impressions.

Permalink Reply by Toni Gilbert on February 5, 2011 at 5:04pm

John, I don't know where to go from here. It doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere. I find great satisfaction in Tarot and astrology but then, I understand and can use the archetypes. I don't see either modality as a tool that can give you solid concrete answers to questions that you don't know and may not know for a while...like shall I move or stay in Scotland. I see it as a tool to help you know yourself, others and the world in a more complete way. That in itself helps you make decisions like the one you had. It seems you want a tool that gives you concrete and "accurate" answers. You aren't likely to find it in Tarot or astrology as they are "arts" and dependent upon the interpretation and the skill of the practitioner at the time of the reading. It is more of a waltz while "feeling" for the moves of your dancing partner than a mathematical tool that measures and explains reality in terms of solid information that you can go to and get just the right answers whenever you want. (That would be nice.) Finally, it is a tool that helps you grow yourself up...self-development not a future telling tool (although, with progressions you can see future trends). Hopefully I have helped explain things further. I have nothing more to say. If you are interested in using the tools, I suggest you do some reading. I have a book too and a second one out in the fall. You can see my book Messages from the Archetypes and the book reviews on my personal web site www.tonigilbert.com

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on February 5, 2011 at 6:38pm

>It doesn't seem like we are getting anywhere.

As I indicated in an earlier post, I was posting for beginners to encourage them to not get lost.

>I don't see either modality as a tool that can give you solid concrete answers to questions that you don't know and may not know for a while

That's kind of sad. What good is it if you can't get solid answers?

>That in itself helps you make decisions like the one you had.

So what did the progressions indicate about the kind of conditions I was in some way meant to or was going to experience? Stay put, or travel? It's not rocket science.

>You aren't likely to find it in Tarot or astrology as they are "arts"

You may not have found it, but it does exist, and beginners and others ought to be told this and encouraged to seek in that direction.

>You can see my book Messages from the Archetypes and the book reviews on my personal web site www.tonigilbert.com

If you should be interested in a more concrete approach to astrology, with multiple examples, you can view excerpts from my Astrology Study Course at www.astrology-in-action.org, or take a look at some YouTube videos - search for johnballantrae004

Permalink Reply by Toni Gilbert on February 6, 2011 at 9:36am

John, I think you are doing something different with astrology than I am. So, there really isn't any where to go with this discussion unless one of us wanted to go with the other. I am happy with the way I do things and think my way makes a difference. There is more than one way to skin a cat as the saying goes. So, signing off, Best to you, Toni