Confused. What am I missing?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Tarot Dactyl on March 15, 2011 at 8:37am

Im just a beginner but I'd love to take a stab at it - to me it would mean that perhaps you overcame past problems through avoidance and that the future is going to be harder to steer especially if you give into aggression... in other words, it's time to take control of something you thought you overcame but that perhaps you had merely avoided... because you may have to deal with it in the future. And there's more than one kind of strength - perhaps it's time to call upon your inner strength and change your approach to the situation that was avoided in the past.

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on March 15, 2011 at 8:46am

Thanks for your reply.

For clarification, can you tell me two things:

- what gave you the idea of avoidance? Was if from a card or a combination of cards, or from elements, or what.

- where do you get the idea of aggression from? As before, was it from a card, or combination, or elemental combination, or what?

You talk about not giving in to aggression in the future, so is the idea connected in some way with The Chariot?

Permalink Reply by Tarot Dactyl on March 15, 2011 at 9:08am

Well here goes -to me the 8 swords is strengthened by the Strength card (air+fire) and when positively affected I think of its energy as being stronger so it's like instead of just being about being stuck or having blinders on to a situation in which you may need to take control because the prison is all in your head which how I usually think of the 8 of swords when it's by itself - being strengthened by a fire card makes me think that since it's in the past it's a situation that you avoided because to me a stronger version of having blinders on is to ignore or avoid dealing with something altogether.  Also it seems significant that you have 3 cards that are about control - 8 of swords - the need to take control, strength - soft control -- chariot - hard control.... also you have two "8s" in a row -which because I also use Tarot Dynamics concepts - are about "renovation"

 

Since the Strength card is in the middle of this and right next to the Chariot I feel it is negatively affected whe looking towards the future and positively affected when looking at the past - but that it's probably the most significant card of the three - so like your way of being strong is important.  Look at the card - mine has a lady easily leading a lion - nice concept - but the lion also represents to me aggression which to me is what the strength card is talking about when negatively affected - you can be strong without coming on like a lion -

 

The Chariot for me when by itself is about victory and also control and also I'm using the Tarot Dynamics concept of the 7s (chariot) being about relationships - when negatively affected by being next to a water card the chariot says to me that the situation is "hard to steer"

 

Does that make sense - what do you think...lol, am I way off? 

 

Permalink Reply by Tarot Dactyl on March 15, 2011 at 9:31am

Oops - I mixed up that last part - I meant that the Chariot is negatively affected because it's a water card next to a fire card (Strength)

Permalink Reply by Tarot Dactyl on March 15, 2011 at 10:00am

oh, one more thing that i considered is that the fire card (Strength) is in the middle of an air card (8 of swords) and a water card (Chariot) -- so the fire is putting distance between two friendly cards - as I think of air+ water as they strengthen each other but are neutral - so that again means that your way of being strong significant - like if you want that "victory" you should change your approach because it's getting in the way

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on March 15, 2011 at 10:28am

First, thanks very much for taking the time to describe and explain your thinking. Hardly anyone does that - and you did it so well, even though I might be disagreeing.

I can follow what you say and it makes sense, but I'm not sure about the premises.

I would have taken a more upbeat and positive stance and empahsized the positive that I thought far outweighs the negative, but if I use elements, then I have to introduce a different dynamic.

>or having blinders on to a situation in which you may need to take control because the prison is all in your head which how I usually think of the 8 of swords when it's by itself

What if the stuckness of the 8 of Swords is maxed-out credit cards, medical and dental problems whose solution can't be paid for, and extreme lack of income? I can see that closing one's eyes to difficulties might have made a bad situation worse, but I'm not so sure that it boils down to taking control, or that the prison is just in one's head. Perhaps ultimately it is, but if someone needs to pay a bill and has no cash, a simple change of thought isn't going to magically satisfy the creditor.

Isn't the past the past - and has it not been moved beyond? You say: May need to take control... but aren't the problems of the past now finished - and the lessons have been learned - since the present and future cards are more positive?

>3 cards that are about control - 8 of swords - the need to take control, strength - soft control -- chariot - hard control....

Not sure about this. What comes first - the idea of control or the card itself?

You can say that every card shows the need for control. The Magician needs control; Temperance needs control; Justice needs control. So seeing the need for control in the card isn't starting with the card itself and its message - it's more like starting with a human norm and imposing it on the situation.

>two "'8s in a row -which because I also use tarot Dynamics concepts - are about "renovation"

So there was and is a need for renovation and it is going on successfully and will continue into the future? That's what I would say, but how does the enemy element of water for The Chariot allow this to happen?

>Strength card .... is negatively affected whe looking towards the future and positively affected when looking at the past

I can see the logic of this, but I can't think of how it might work out in actual practice in someone's life.

>the lion  also represents to me aggression

Not sure what to say about this bit.

>The chariot ... I'm using the Tarot Dynamics concept of the 7s (chariot) being about relationships

I'm not sure how The Chariot is more or more particularly about relationships than The Lovers, or The Devil or many other cards.

>the situation is "hard to steer"

I would have thought that the understanding (spiritual or otherwise) of Strength would carry through into the future for a while at least and provide a decent foundation for any manoeuvring that The Chariot might be involved in.

Yours,

John Ballantrae

Permalink Reply by Tarot Dactyl on March 15, 2011 at 11:02am

I didn't mean for it to sound negative but it's so helpful to me that you point that out because I don't think of it as negative but showing a need to renovate the use of strength in the situation.

 

If it's bills and debt - hmmm, well, I didn't see any money involved in the spread but I guess I could see paperwork (swords) that could have to do with money  -- I know it's in the past - but with your example it makes me think that even though we shouldn't, sometimes we avoid paying bills or kid ourselves into thinking that they won't come back to haunt us -- I guess with these cards and if it's a money situation - I might look at the past as something that you went through and that is not a main concern in the present but that may have bearing on the future - like getting a loan that took care of the situation at the time in the past but of course the loan will have to be paid off eventuallyin the future - like you were able to avoid paying it all out - if you've got bad credit perhaps you got a loan from a friend who lent it to you because of the inner strength of your personality or the strong bond you have, but that you will need to pay it eventually as you can't keep relying on the strength of that bond to deal with that past debt??. but I have to admit it feels a little like I'm going out on a limb here as I just didn't see it as a money sit...but I didn't know what the question was about to begn with so...

 

I don't think the future "victory" is not attainable - but that your "relationship" to strength impacts it. 

 

I really appreciate what you're saying the idea of control being able to be applied to any card... I will definitely do some thinking about that and see if that's what I've been doing... hadn't thought about it when it comes to The Magician - who I think of as having all the elements at his disposal or Temperance which I think of as the need for tolerance or compromise or Justice which I've been thinking of as more like balance and cause and effect or the need for objective reasoning - but wow, you've kinda opened that up for me now and given me food for thought - thanks!

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on March 15, 2011 at 11:39am

Would you mind telling me your birth data, just out of interest and so I can relate it to what you're saying. If you don't want to, then that's totally fine, of course. You could email it to bllntr@yahoo.com.

 

I'd like to think some more about what you've just said rather than just react to it, so I'll reply again in a bit.

Permalink Reply by Tarot Dactyl on March 15, 2011 at 11:46am

Oh cool - I'd love to hear how it relates.  I'll email it to you.

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on March 15, 2011 at 2:30pm

Dear Mary:

Thanks again for your detailed reply.

> showing a need to renovate the use of strength in the situation.

I think I know in a general way what that means, but what would you say to a questioner about what that person should actually DO to bring this about? It sounds good, but what does it mean?

I find that it is important that the man-in-the-street-questioner should be able to understand and act upon what we say the Tarot is saying.

>If it's bills and debt - hmmm, well, I didn't see any money involved in the spread

Does it really matter what the details are? The person was stuck and trapped - to some extent by their own reluctance to face certain demands society makes on us all; but not everyone is good at keeping on top of material needs.

>or kid ourselves into thinking that they won't come back to haunt us --

Or expect that our good work and honest attitude will generate enough income to pay off the debt. You were born on a Wednesday, so you tend to look on the dark side.

>if it's a money situation

It's not specifically a money situation - but the 8 of Swords is more like examples of the kind of trouble lots of people get into, really through no fault of their own, but they end up stuck and unable to move and paralysed.

>but I didn't know what the question was about to begn with so...

It was pick a card for the past, the present and the future. The answer seemed straightforward enough until I tried to use the elements - that people say are so useful, but that I wanted to see in action.

Priscilla said that maybe past, present and future isn't the best spread for demonstrating the use of the elements. This was kind of disappointing. If the method can't answer a simple past, present and future, then what is it good for?
    
>idea of control

Fixed signs have a thing about control and power because they think they're God, or at least a human and limited-thinking version of God. Other signs couldn't care less. 

The Magician controls his thinking, the audience, and his hands if he is to perform his tricks; Temperance needs to regulate the flow between the cups; Justice has to control its thinking; etc.

If you take a concept like intelligence or creativity, you can't see it as belonging to one or other of the trumps - though people do do this. You might think that creativity belongs with The Magician, but The Emperor is creative too - you have to be creative and intelligent if you're going to run an empire; so are the other trumps creative and intelligent, but in their own way.

That is one of my objections to the idea that 2011 is a 4 year -- so certain behaviour makes more sense or we ought to do certain things.

Why is 2011 better than any other year for starting new projects, or for changing your life, or for  re-organizing your values, or whatever else this year is supposed to be good for?

Permalink Reply by Tarot Dactyl on March 15, 2011 at 3:40pm

"Fixed signs have a thing about control" - good 2 know...do you think that if one is a fixed sign and that person is reading various resources to learn about tarot that when they are looking at a laundry list of meanings for a card, like strength and the chariot, that they will automatically gravitate toward keywords having to do with control - like "soft control" and "hard control" - which I think is how I came to apply those ideas towards those cards by the way? If so any ideas on how I should counterbalance that in fluence? Does my Taurus Moon in my 12th make me stubborn or maybe a secretive control freak?

On the question thing -it seems there are varying schools of thought - some say you should never be told what the question is... others say that you should b/c the cards have so many associated ideas that knowing helps you understand better what the cards are talking about and which meanings are applicable... what do you think?

Yeah - I don't really feel the 4 of 2011 either -especially now with all the turmoil in the world - but is that just me being dark, a wednesday's child thing too?

Permalink Reply by John Ballantrae on March 15, 2011 at 8:24pm

>will automatically gravitate toward

It's easy to assume that others are like us and think the way we do and will like what we like. Some (with the same or similar astrological make-up) will be like us, and we attract into our lives the people who can teach us the lesson we are learning at that time. I think that's true anyway.

I think this is where reading what is on the card and making sense of it in relation to the question is how to do a reading for someone. It's easier to stay on track if you don't translate the Tarot into some other symbolism, but make yourself do a lot with the card, especially when you think you've said all you can about it. Make yourself stay with it for a bit longer.

> Does my Taurus Moon in my 12th make me stubborn

That is a big question. Here is a small answer. A chart doesn't ell you anything until you ask it a question - but not so  much a question like: what does this aspect mean? If we ask what you talk about, then we look to the 3rd house with Cancer on the cusp and the Moon in Taurus in the 12th - the house of karma and other lifetimes, etc. So you talk about self-undoing, and getting oneself into trouble. You understand the criminal mind, so you'd make a good lawyer. You'd make a good criminal too, but we hope you're on the good side of the fence, so to speak. The moon rules your 2nd house too, so your values come from other lifetimes. There is a lot more, of course. The 3rd rules siblings, and Orson Welles had the ruler of the 3rd in the 12th (though different planets from you) and his brother was kept locked up in a mental institution, but you get the idea of a different kind of event going on in the lives of people with this placement.

>varying schools of thought - some say you should never be told what the question is... others say that you should

I like to know the question, but on the Monday show a couple of weeks ago, I suggested that listeners try a different approach to see what they learn. Make sure the questioner has a question, but don't ask what it is. Pick some cards and do a reading. You have to work harder when you don't know what you're dealing with - but you explain the strengths and weaknesses, or the dynamics of the reading. Then find out what the question was, and re-consider the reading to relate it to the question.

You don't know what you're saying, but the questioner will be putting it together - and you'll find you're talking more sense than you think.

In general, though, I think it's a good idea to know the question, if only so you can explain to the questioner what they are asking for before you do the reading.

>me being dark, a wednesday's child thing too?

Well,Wednesday's child is full of woe, as they say, so they're good at spotting the flaws and the defects. When they explain how to fix them or how to overcome, then they are at their best.

Yours,

John Ballantrae

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